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Excellent article, Diogenes, thanks for sharing.
And floyd, right on! However, I must disagree with you on one thing ... unions have outlived their usefulness. |
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Posted by horseygirl  - 11/20/2012 10:43:54 PM
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Here's a little historical perspective by a very perceptive man. http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/333695/uncooked-goose-thomas-sowell# |
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Posted by Diogenes - 11/20/2012 2:12:00 PM
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I generally agree floyd, thanks for expounding. IMO, our country can do a lot better and needs to. |
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Posted by George Lauby - 11/20/2012 8:25:35 AM
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Hey George. With all respect intended. The execs are working in a separate framework, dollar wise—it was large and It was obscene. However it seems to me unlikely that any union member—I would think a majority of them, once the chips fell, would sooner have a good job (though less good than before) rather than no job. I would anyway. The framework of loss or gain for each individual worker is has less zeros on the end of it than any executive would have. Though, In my opinion, what the union reps did is no less greedy or obscene. They are in place to do the best thing for their members. They failed. I am not saying unions are bad, in no way am I saying that, I am saying that with the power unions have to fight, there is no excuse for leading their members down the path they chose. Greed and irresponsibility runs both directs. What I get tired of is the critical gaze cast only in the direction of the owners/execs/wealthy by people who have made their OWN choices and lived the way THEY wanted to live and who, by those choices, have not had the success they desire. It is a physical impossibility for all people to be equal, have equal opportunity, or even equal results an any framework in any life. I know Union members who were autoworkers and were laid off 10 or so years ago that were line workers making 75.00 per hour. That’s obscene as well, but what is worse was listening to them complain about how they were going to replace that income and how unfair it was to lose their job. How anyone who makes 75.00 per hour for years on end - doesn’t become self sufficient as a result?--- being destitute after that level of income is not tragedy, it is idiocy. More so to complain about it. |
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Posted by floyd - 11/20/2012 6:55:19 AM
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floyd, it seems they are more greedy than most of us. What they have done is, wow, nearly unbelievable. |
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Posted by George Lauby - 11/19/2012 7:13:20 PM
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Upper-end execs are certainly as greedy as the rest of us—BUT… if you want the perks of the job they have you should have done what it took to get that job--- Sign me—sick of the whining.
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Posted by floyd - 11/19/2012 6:49:41 AM
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More and more, it seems that big companies, big unions & big government are distant from and take advantage of individuals, even though the rights of individuals are at the center of the highest principles of our country. We support individuals, their efforts and products, and encourage you to do the same. (One of our founding mottos is "no more corporate media.") |
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Posted by George Lauby - 11/19/2012 2:59:43 AM
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yeah the management had a problem but that was taken care of.. but hostess employees just starting out made 23 an hour. yeah they should have made the concession .
another case of union leadership screwing the members |
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Posted by dread - 11/19/2012 12:13:00 AM
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Looks like plenty of blame to go around with the workers ending up with the dirty end of the stick. One thing to always remember when reading about union workers is that there is a big difference between the rank and file members and the top union officials. It is similar to the company executives who continue to do well at the expense of the worker bees. The union officials didn’t take a cut in pay or miss a check with the loss of these jobs. Don’t pile on the workers too quickly. They likely weren’t given all the information they needed and were pressured into this decision. Part of the leverage would be the fact that management wasn’t sacrificing so why should they. A sad day for America. |
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Posted by Diogenes - 11/18/2012 7:26:42 PM
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Sounds like greedy management not the unions fault. Unions do good things for companies |
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Posted by dadof9 - 11/18/2012 4:42:26 PM
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yes, the top dogs at the company boosted their own salaries by as much as 80 percent, the bankruptcy court discovered earlier this year. In an effort to restore relations, the new CEO Rayburn cut the salaries of the four top Hostess executives to $1, to be restored by January 1 (or earlier) of the following year, but the concesssion was not enough to satisfy the discouraged members of the Bakery, Confectionery, Tobacco Workers and Grain Millers International union. More than 90 percent of the BCTWGM voted to reject the final offer.
cscscs is right, it looks like most of the jobs could go to Mexico, where baked goods giant Bimbo Grupo is located. Bimbo offered to buy the company in 2007. |
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Posted by George Lauby - 11/18/2012 12:50:54 PM
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cscsbs were is your source? In a bankruptcy I find it hard for them to vote to pay increase , judges just dont do tat, also any changes in pay and pensions will also be ran through the court. Face it those workers are unemployed and even if another company purchased it, chances are they would still be unemployed. unions lost them their jobs, plain and simple. |
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Posted by justmeagain - 11/18/2012 9:05:00 AM
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Hmmmm, Notice to workers: You need to take another pay cut and take another hit on your pension and health insurance. Meanwhile: Top executive gives himself a raise tripling his salary to over 2 million bucks and even more raises are given to top execs. Why aren't these guys making "sacrifices" to keep the company open.
It looks to me that these top company guys were looking for a way to bleed more money from the worker to take even more money from the company. These guys should have their salaries seized as part of the bankruptcy of the company. At least Jessie James used a gun.
Sell the company to Bimbo, it will be a win win for the workers. |
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Posted by cscscs007 - 11/18/2012 5:16:33 AM
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I was eating in a local eating establishment last week. Overheard three guys talking over breakfast. The one said " yea I have been on the clock for 3 hours already. They always pay me to eat out. " They all 3 laughed and spoke some more about the UP. Not sure if all 3 worked there or not but the one was certainly proud of his taking advantage of his employer. I was a little shocked to be quite honest. |
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Posted by negirl2 - 11/17/2012 8:01:09 PM
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Thanks George, very interesting.
On the unions, They are to blame, if it was between a job with less pay or no job, I would still take a job. The UP is a perfect example of a protectionist union gone crazy, too many old(some young) lazy UP workers that do not have to "earn" their pay because they are protected by the union, IF the pay was based on hard work and skill, many UP workers would be either without a job or not making nearly as much as they do now. Many of new hires will tell you about older UP workers that had to tell them to "slow down, don't work so hard ,You are making us look bad,if they see that we'll all have to work like that".
many of UP employee will hide out a for hours to kill time. Now I know there are plenty that do work hard and earn their keep, this is not aimed at them, I know a few of those guys , but if one UP employee comes in here and says this does not happen, you are witnessing a liar or a blind man. Unions have seen their best days and they are behind them. |
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Posted by justmeagain - 11/17/2012 12:59:12 PM
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This is all because of greed we now have in America . Not only do we have corporate greed but also individual greed , if it came down to losing your job( no money at all) or taking a cut in pay and paying more of the share for benefits like health care ) I use to think that most would see the latter to be the right choice but not in these days it is easier to stay home now and suck off the rest of us who are working. employees better get use to this as with the economy and the Obama heath care act companies are going to start wanting more from the employees or the benefits are going to get cut |
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Posted by nebred - 11/17/2012 8:30:41 AM
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Here's part of our findings on Wonder Bread shelf life -- (June 2011) "Long story short, after two years and eight months of sitting on a back shelf here at the office, a half-loaf of Wonder bread still has nary a speck of mold. The same is true of an order of McDonald's French fries."
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Posted by George Lauby - 11/17/2012 5:01:33 AM
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This is real nice ...the executives created their golden parachutes. Doubled and tripled their pay during tough times while wantimg to cut pay and 30% of benefits of their workers and yet still blaming the union workers for the sinking ship. Who would want a 25% stake in a sinking ship with real DING-DONGS running the thing? Every thing happens for a reason and hopefully a new company employes some of the previous workers minus the management. |
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Posted by chasman32 - 11/17/2012 4:58:54 AM
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Union or non-union, would anyone posting here accept a 8% pay cut along with having to pay for 30% more of their benefits out of pocket? If Hostess and the associated companies go out of business, do you think people will suddenly just stop buying bread and snack foods? I don't think so. More than likely other companies will see an increase in sales, which will result in an increase in jobs to meet the increased demands.
(Little Debbie Snack Foods?) Hostess has been struggling for the past decade because of poor management and in and out of bankrupsy, only to be taken over by Vulture Capitalists. I say the Union and the employees did the right thing. Let 'em go! The Management at this company FAILED, not the employees. |
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Posted by ricochet - 11/17/2012 3:51:46 AM
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Before you go blaming the unions for all of this just a few things to note: 1. As the company was struggling with the debt, the CEO's salary went from $750,000 to $2,550,000; 2. At least nine other top executives were given raises including one that went from $500,000 to $900,000 and one from $375,000 to $656,256; 3. Much of the "bailout" was done by vulture capitalists who ended up causing the company more debt while stripping the last of the value from the company. (Sources: thinkprogress.org and addictinginfo.org) |
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Posted by Smokey Bear - 11/17/2012 1:12:41 AM
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No worries Twinkies fans. Just stock up now while you can. I've heard they have a shelf life of 50 yrs. :) |
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Posted by Scott Shawn DeRocks - 11/16/2012 9:02:42 PM
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George , can you list those preservatives per product, Or are you just making a generalization?
The heart of the matter is that unions have forced many people, thousands out of work, had those workers decided to take the deal then get rid of the antiquated union. They would have then made up the lost money from reduced wages ,instead of supporting the union financially.
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Posted by justmeagain - 11/16/2012 7:20:36 PM
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imagine a few people don't care that people will be unemployed..oh, wait we just had an election never mind. |
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Posted by harleyman - 11/16/2012 5:57:11 PM
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icons of bland products full of preservatives |
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Posted by George Lauby - 11/16/2012 5:35:13 PM
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another company will buy the copyright there not going to let icons die
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Posted by Flat Rock franny - 11/16/2012 5:15:18 PM
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lol. can't say I'll miss the products. |
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Posted by George Lauby - 11/16/2012 5:04:52 PM
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But hey, not to worry! Here's a link to a Twinkies recipe. It's even from MSNBC, so you know you can trust the source for accuracy... http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/38681430/ns/today-food/t/make-your-own-twinkies-top-secret-recipe/ |
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Posted by Morgan Greenwood - 11/16/2012 4:09:48 PM
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I read that one of the union demands was that delivery trucks and drivers would have to handle either cake products or bread products but not both. |
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Posted by Morgan Greenwood - 11/16/2012 4:04:54 PM
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Without Twinkies, why would went WANT to survive the zombie apocalypse? :) |
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Posted by doby - 11/16/2012 2:11:46 PM
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Let's see, workers have a choice - take benefits cut or lose their job.
Union: Lose job, lose job.
Way to go there union. |
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Posted by are you kidding? - 11/16/2012 2:06:15 PM
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Without twinkies how are we suppose to survive the zombie apocalypse? |
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Posted by Mike - 11/16/2012 11:50:19 AM
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